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What gets in the way of peace?
Posted on Nov 11th, 2007
by 
:franc
:franc
This is in Response to the Questions and Reflections for November 11, 2007:
Religion.
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:franc
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Dear franc,
I do understand that religion can “get in the way of” Peace, but I also know that in can be a path to Peace for some folks. (depends on the individual). Thank You for your contribution to Peace.
Much Love & Peace
You spelled “Religion” with a capital “R”. Is there anything behind that, or were you just answering in the form of a sentence?
Peace!
~M
It's always important to distinguish “Religion” from faith and spirituality. The Religious Hierarchy is one thing. Personal spirituality is quite another.
“You are killing more of each other every day over your quarrels over religion than all other things put together, because you cannot even come to an agreement about what you think God says, or wants for you. On one side of the world God wants something different than the other. On one side of the room, in one side of your mind, God wants something different than on the other. The power is within you. You are extensions of this powerful Source Energy. You are literally God expressing in this physical body. And so, as you are standing in a thought, or in a word, or in an action that feels good to you as you are standing there–then you are fully open and allowing all of that Divine Energy to flow through you. And in that moment you are all that you said you would be when you decided to come forth into this body. You are the extension of pure positive energy. You are in your full creative power. You are thriving. You are clear-minded. You are joyful. You are filled with love. You are who you are–you are allowing that which you really are.” — Abraham
See, that is the punch line. Kill each other over God, and then we find out we are all expressions of that same energy. ha-ha-ha… But something tells me you aren't laughing. ;)
wow, i didn't expect much of an reaction on this.
BeLynn: I can understand that religion seems peaceful from the inside, and i do think that on some individuals it has a peaceful effect. Some situations may be diffused by means of religious guilt or hierarchy, but they are few and far between. In contrast there are infinitely more examples of hate, conflict, intolerance, famine, illness, poverty and war as direct results of religious hierarchy, faith, dogmatism and 'righteousness'.
~M: no significance in the capital 'R'. i was just trying to imply that it is a one word sentence. I didn't particularly want to expand on the topic.
Jamilah: I do agree that it may be important to distinguish faith from religious hierarchy, but in this case i believe they are both equally evil. in fact, religion without faith is probably a lot more peaceful. that said, i do think that it is unfair that religions get to hijack spirituality. Spirituality is something that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with religion or faith and i don't think it related to peace, or the lack there-off in a meaningful way.
Generally speaking, the more faith, and religious faith you have, the more likely you are to oppose peace.
The more rational you are the more likely you'll behave in a peaceful, or even altruistic, way.
“Generally speaking, the more faith, and religious faith you have, the more likely you are to oppose peace.”
I disagree. You may be basing this on the “piety” of the evangelist, pope, or politician. These public figures often do great harm while espousing deep personal faith. In the case of a pope who declares war (crusades), the motive is probably economic. Same for the evangelist. The politician kisses babies and says God talks to him. More lies. Unfortunately, one of those politicians convinced otherwise good people to hate and fear Muslims, but that's another topic.
Talk to someone with faith and no other incentives clouding his actions. People like this do exist and I've met them in all “religions.” I've also met the other kind.
True faith brings peace. It's the pretenders who create the wars.
i think we might be disaggreeing on the definition of faith.
“faith” as i use it is in the byblical sense:
hebrews 11:1 ”faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see”
a believe without reason
a trust based in ignorance
faith as an act of will without objective proof
it is my position that these ignorant beliefs in 'truths' are prohibitting peace more than anything else and infact will be the cause of most future conflict and famine.
I completely agree with your point about blind faith, or faith without reason and understanding. That exists among people of every religion. I've seen it among Christians, Muslims, and Buddhists (when I was in Thailand).
When I converted, I was tired of being told to “just believe.” I took over a year to systematically study every belief system (i.e., religion) and meet the followers. There are Muslims who follow Islam because their parents and grandparents did. I follow Islam because I found logic in it. Again, I'm sure you'll find some people in every religion who actually know what they are doing and why.
So the problem isn't religion per se, but the ignorant followers of the religions (which, unfortunately, is probably the majority).
most religions, strictly speaking, is not open to reason. I do aggree and acknowledge that there are a lot of loving, reasonable, honest, peaceful, humble people that also happen to be religious. It is my view that in most cases they are open to peace despite their religious convictions and not because of them.
the discussion has progressed towards a point where i must qualify that my experience and knowledge of religion (and thus what i keep in mind when i discuss religion) is mainly confined to various christian interpretations and what i could gather by doing a fair amount of reading on other christian sects and mainstream judaism and islam. i am including cults, but i am in no way suggesting that mainstream religion is equal to cults. i do think that the evil in mainstream religion is a subset of the many more evils seen in cults.
I have a deep respect for buddhism to the extend that it encourages its followers to be critical of buddhism itself.
i do aggree that the ignorant followers of religions are a major problem. where we might disaggree is where i believe those ignorant followers that are (for example) killing each other over religious interpretations could very well live in peace if there were no religions for them to misinterpret.
people are good, despite their religious believes. i quite like the over simplified quote by Steven Weinberg: “With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”
the problem with religion is it's infectious belief that it holds unchallengeable truth. the selling of ignorance, blind faith and sheeplike obedience as virtues. the condeming of the 'other' and the lack of respect of life. obviously this does not describe religious people accross the board, but if you were to look for such people, you'd know where to look.
i respect everyone's right to their own religious views, as long as they don't encrouch on other peoples happiness. i don't respect everyone's particular religious views though. if you are going to make religious claims then i believe you should be open to discussing and debating them.
anyhoo :) i'm just babbling on now. in fear of getting way off topic i'd rather stop here for a bit.
In regard to the Steven Weinberg quote, I think you would have to include not only religion but nationalism. I had a religion prof back in college who contended (back in the 70s) that there is a civil religion in this country with worship of the nation itself–the flag being then an important religious symbol. I think many more people do evil in the name of love of nation.
I mentioned the Buddhists because of my experience in Thailand. When I was there (early 90s) the mayor of Bangkok, Chamlong, was a devout Buddhist who practiced vegetarianism and simple living. The majority of Thai Buddhists, however, practiced only the surface things such as respect of monks and observing holidays. (Thai people love holidays!) In large part they combined Buddhism with animism. And there were, relatively speaking, very few vegetarians in Thailand. (I remember the pigs head hanging from booths in the open market. Ugh!)
I don't fault you with this, but a pet peeve among Muslims is that when people in this country say “religion” they usually mean Christianity. My 18-year old is ready to do battle (figuratively speaking, of course–Muslims have to be careful what we say) with that mentality and often complains about it. My biggest problem with that is that I want to label my books as religious fiction, but they bear no resemblance to the Christian fiction in the bookstores. We don't quite have our own niche yet.
i agree on the nationalism, and would maybe even change the word 'religion' and replace it with 'ideology'. That doesn't make religion any better, just puts more groups in the 'sin bin'.
with regards to the flag. i've done a lot of travelling recently, and the USA is the only country i've been where you are constantly bombarded with the flag like that. It seams as if there is a greater respect for the flag than for the constitution.
in anycase, i can symphasize with your and your daughters' struggle. With 'this country' i can only assume you speak of the USA. I'm not from there, but as i understand it, it has an almost theocratic problem. Here, in south africa, politics and religion is less intertwined.
who doesn't love holidays!
Hi franc,
I haven't read all the comments here yet, but what I did read was really interesting. A lot of your responses remind me of my objectivist friend. Maybe you'd be interested in some books by Ayn Rand!
~Amy~
I like Ayn Rand, even though I disagree with her. Atlas Shrugged is an incredible book. I've read it twice and will probably pick it up again soon.